Wild.io Casino - Играчът е изправен пред непрофесионален KYC процес и проблеми с акаунта.

I have been in discussions with the support team of this casino site for several weeks.

I provided all the documents requested for the KYC verification, but then they asked for an additional verification call via Skype.

After several exchanges, I agreed to this request, but it was specified that the method would be a call through Skype.

During the call, they explained in my native language the terms of service justifying the need for this process, and I agreed to it as a prerequisite for withdrawal.

During the first Skype call, the other party was six minutes late and contacted me for the first time at 17:21, despite having been given my Skype ID in advance.

I was kept waiting due to their unprofessional conduct, causing the first verification attempt to go unused.

Despite my agreeing to the second verification attempt, they didn’t show up.

Today, a third verification was scheduled, but they suddenly changed the procedure to a video verification, which was not previously mentioned.

This series of events has made me distrust them. During today's verification, they insisted on a video call, which wasn’t mentioned in any prior email correspondence.

However, I was pressured due to time constraints and the potential forfeiture of my balance. I was forced into an unexpected KYC process that differed from the initial description.

I asked for clarification on this, but they deceptively cited term 13.4 as if it had been communicated.

During today’s video verification, they also mentioned the clause:

【Please note that providing false/inaccurate/misleading information during this process will result in immediate account termination】

This was explained suddenly as well.

I requested verification in my native language and references to the terms of service, but I was never informed that English would be prioritized, which put me at a disadvantage as I’m not proficient in English. This was communicated to them beforehand.

Their approach to KYC verification, both call and video, has been consistently lacking integrity. I stipulated that I would accept video verification if they apologized for their shortcomings.

Nevertheless, they failed to apologize, instead alleging that I refused the KYC process, thus closing the verification and confiscating my funds.

Although they presented term 13.1 in an email, I was never shown 13.4.

This indicates that they deliberately withheld information about the psychological burden from Skype call to video verification.

Simply undergoing video verification didn’t seem feasible to me.

From rejecting native language verification, last-minute shifts from call to video, missing advance notifications, to threats of account closure without presenting term 13.4, my inquiries went unanswered.

I believe that this might be a violation of the customer privacy policy set out by the company, Nonce Gaming B.V.

While imposing the strict condition of immediate account termination for any deviation from the truth, they did not offer any apology for their misleading explanations.

I want to seek this arbitration site's assistance to receive a formal apology for their untrustworthy conduct.

I have kept all records of the incidents and would like to request Casino Guru's judgment after verification.

I don’t refuse KYC verification; my anger is directed at the support team’s lack of sincerity.

This explanation was lengthy, but your support would be greatly appreciated.

こちらのカジノサイトのサポートと数週間に及ぶやり取りを行いました。

KYC検証で要求された書類を全て提供しましたが、追加でスカイプによる通話の検証を求められました。

何度かのやり取りを経てこの説明に同意を示しましたが、その説明はSkypeでの通話です。

通話の際には母国語での回答や、私が応じる理由が存在する利用規約の説明を受け、出金するためにも同意した経緯です。

それから1回目のSkype通話では相手方が6分遅刻をされた上に、事前にSkypeIDを提供していたにも関わらず、当日の17:21に初めてコンタクトが届きました。

その間私はずっと待機しておりましたが、彼らの非常識な対応によって1回目の検証は流れました。

その後、2回目の検証予定を私は同意したにも関わらず、当日検証に彼らは来ませんでした。

そして本日3度目の検証を組むことになりましたが、この際に彼らは事前説明とは異なるビデオ検証を急遽持ち出されています。

私はこの一連の経緯に彼らに対して不信感を抱き、本日の検証では通話の予定であり、カメラを起動するビデオ検証という説明は、それまでのメールのやりとりを全て遡っても記載されてない旨の説明をしました。

しかし、時間が押していること、私の残高が没収される危険性を押し出され、事前の説明と異なるKYC検証に応じるよう圧力を受けていました。

私はメールにその説明があったのかどうかを問い合わせしますが、彼らは利用規約13.4を推し進めて、あたかもメールでもその回答があったかのように錯誤させています。

彼らは本日のビデオ検証に置いても

【このプロセス中に虚偽/不正確/誤解を招く情報を提供すると、アカウントが即座に終了することに注意してください】

この一文を急遽説明されました。

私は母国語での通話検証も利用規約を示すよう伝えましたが、英語での通話が優先されるという説明も一度も受けておらず、英語は苦手で私に不利に働く可能性があることも事前に説明しています。

KYCの通話、ビデオ検証において彼らの対応には一貫して誠実性がなく、それだけではありません。私は彼らの不備を謝罪してくれればビデオ検証を受けるという説明をしました。

にも関わらず彼らは自分たちの不備を一度謝罪せずに、KYCプロセスを私が拒否したといい、検証を終了し私のお金を没収した次第です。

この問題に置いては利用規約13.1をメールで提示されておりましたが、13..4は一度も提示を受けておりません。

このことからも彼らはスカイプの通話→ビデオという心理的な負担を意図的に伏せていたことが明らかとなります。

これは単純にビデオ検証を受ければいい問題だとは私にはどうしても思えませんでした。

母国語での検証拒否から始まり、通話→ビデオの当日の切り替わり、根拠を事前に提示していたかを質問をしても、同意しなければアカウント閉鎖、13.4を提示してたかを最後まで回答されませんでした。

これはNonce Gaming B.V.という会社が示している顧客のプライバシーポリシーに違反しているのではないかと考えております。

彼らは本日持ち出した

【このプロセス中に虚偽/不正確/誤解を招く】

この一文に触れればアカウントを即座に閉鎖するという厳しい条件を提示しておきながら、自分たちの不正確、誤解を招く説明には何一つ謝罪をしておりません。

私がこちらの仲裁サイトへ協力していただきたいのは、彼らの不誠実な対応に関する正式な謝罪です。

一連の経緯を全て保存しておりますので、それらを確認していただいた上でカジノグルの判断を仰ぎたいです。

私はKYC検証を拒否しているのではなく、サポートの不誠実な対応に憤りを感じています。

長くなりましたがお力添えをよろしくお願いします。

Dear monyfry,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your problem.

Please understand that KYC is a very important and essential process, during which the casino makes sure that the money is sent to the rightful owner. As they don't have the luxury of being able to physically see all of the players and check their identification and documents, this is the only way gambling establishments are able to complete the verification procedures. None of the serious and licensed casinos take KYC lightly. It's also important to note the common practice for the Skype call to mean a video verification call.

• Was your first verification call, not a video call? In what language was your call?
• What information about the verification call was shared with you in advance?
• Do I understand correctly the casino refused to schedule a 4th call?
• Which documents did you submit to the casino before any call was scheduled?
• You can share supporting evidence in the thread in the form of screenshots or send it to my email at [email protected]

I hope we will be able to help you to resolve this issue as soon as possible. Thank you in advance for your reply.

Best regards,

Tomas

Due to the increased volume of complaints during this time of year, we kindly request your patience while awaiting our responses. We aim to publish each complaint within 48 hours of submission but reserve up to 7 days to reply to any subsequent comments. Additionally, please be aware that it might take a bit longer for your complaint to be assigned to a resolver, as we are currently managing over 900 complaints.

Your understanding is greatly appreciated. Wishing you a delightful holiday season, and we will get back to you as soon as possible.

I have emailed you a screenshot of all the conversations we have had so far.

Please check.

これまでのやり取りを全てスクリーンショットでまとめたのをメールに送信しました。

ご確認お願いします。

Thanks for your emails, I appreciate your patience.

The casino has the right to ask for verification in English.

If we ask the casino to allow you to reconsider its position and to verify you, you will most likely be asked to complete the verification video call in English.

Please let me know if you wish for us to contact the casino on your behalf.

I received something different from what was explained to me beforehand, but will that be considered a problem?

The terms of use don't state whether calls will be in the native language, and if they prioritize English for Japanese users, I think they should have written that.

事前の説明と異なる事を受けていましたが、それらは何も問題とされないのでしょうか?

利用規約には母国語の通話かどうかも書かれておらず、日本ユーザーを入れている彼らは英語を優先する場合、それを書いてないといけないと思うのですが

Thank you very much, monyfry, for providing the necessary information. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Pavel ([email protected]) who will be at your service. I wish you the best of luck and hope the problem will be resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.  

Hello, monyfry! Thank you for your patience. Now I will be taking care of your complaint and I hope that together we will resolve the problem. I would like to invite the casino to give them a chance to explain their side of the situation. In case of player's breach of terms and conditions, please, send the relevant evidence to my e-mail: [email protected]. It will not be shared with anyone, including the player. Thank you!

Dear audience,

As our team prepares all the necessary information, we would like to note that during the verification process, the user demonstrated a lack of cooperation, which has impacted the resolution timeline.

Dear Pavel,

You can expect an email from our team shortly. Once the email has been sent, we will also provide further updates here in this thread.

Thank you for your time.

Best Regards,

The Wild.io Team

There is no evidence that I violated the terms of use.

We would also like to inform you that while our team was preparing all the necessary information, the user was not cooperative during the validation process, which impacted the resolution timeline.

This is also a malicious assertion.

In this case, verification that differed from what had been explained in advance was suddenly brought up on the day of the event.

A question for the Wild.io representative.

Until the day itself, you did not explain to me that this was a video verification.

The explanation given is based on a Skype call verification.

On that day, I explained that I would agree to a video call if they admitted their mistake and apologized.

As you know, Skype has calling and video features.

However, it is possible that, for example, the camera is broken due to a device malfunction, but you can still make calls.

On the day, my device and the camera function were working without any problems.

My argument is consistent.

The problem is that you suddenly brought up a verification that was different from what was explained to me beforehand, and without even checking whether my device was in an environment where the camera could work, you changed the verification from a call verification to a video verification, which was very unreasonable.

The reason I ask for an apology is that if you had explained in advance that this was a video verification, I would have checked in advance to make sure my own device worked without any problems.

But if you don't go through those steps and just ask me to agree to a random video verification, and then when I agree and the camera doesn't work, you're going to take that and accuse me of not cooperating with the KYC verification?

[Because the user was not cooperative during the verification process] You have actually written down this false perception and are now claiming here that there was no problem with your own response.

Conversely, I would like to ask you: after reading my above assertions, do you still believe there were no problems with the way you handled the matter up until the time of the investigation?

私が利用規約違反をした事実はございません。

また>弊社のチームが必要な情報をすべて準備している中で、検証プロセス中にユーザーが協力的でなかったため、解決までの期間に影響が出たことをお知らせします。

この発言も悪意に満ちた主張です。

こちらは事前の説明と異なる検証を当日になっていきなり持ち出された経緯がございます。

Wild.ioの代表者に質問します。

あなた方は私に対して当日まで、一切ビデオ検証であるという説明をしておりませんよね。

説明の経緯はSkypeによる通話検証です。

私はこの点について、そちらが非を認めて謝罪していただければビデオ通話に同意するとも当日説明をしております。

ご存知のようにSkypeは通話機能とビデオ機能が備わっています。

ですが、例えばデバイスの不具合などでカメラが壊れているが、通話だけは可能であるという可能性もあります。

当日の私のデバイスはもちろんカメラ機能も問題無く動作しておりました。

私の主張は一貫しています。

そちらが事前の説明と異なる検証をいきなり持ち出し、私のデバイスがカメラが動作する環境なのかも確認を取らず、通話検証→ビデオ検証にする行為は非常識であるという点です。

私が謝罪を求める理由は、そちらがビデオ検証であるというのを事前に説明していれば、私は自身のデバイスが問題無く動作するかも込で事前確認を取ります。

しかし、そういった段階を踏まずに行き成りのビデオ検証に同意しろと言われ、私がそれに同意してからカメラが機能しなかった場合などに、あなた方はその点をついて、それこそKYC検証に協力しなかったと責め立てるのではありませんか?

【検証プロセス中にユーザーが協力的でなかったため】実際にこのように事実と異なる認識を書き立てて、ご自身の対応が問題なかったとこちらで主張されてますよね。

逆にお聞きしたいのですが、私の上記の主張を読んだ上で、あなた方は検証するまでの対応に今も問題が無かったという認識なのですか?

I have already provided the entire sequence of events via email and Skype.

There is one more point I would like to make.

When it comes to call and video verification, it is also important to capture scenes from the surrounding environment.

I will actually be on the call, so I will be able to understand the surrounding environment on the day.

I was outside the office on the day. I had been told in advance that it was a phone call verification, so I thought I would only have to answer a few questions over the phone.

However, if video verification is requested, there may be cases where it is inappropriate to record the surrounding environment.

I strongly believe that there is absolutely no consideration for these users and that the way the verification process was handled is unreasonable.

I would like the arbitration site to respond objectively as to whether my claims are unreasonable or whether there is something wrong with the casino's verification process.

I just can't see anything wrong with my argument.

既に私はメールでのやり取りとSkypeによる一連の経緯を全て提供済みです。

もう一点追加で主張したいことがございます。

通話検証とビデオ検証では、周囲の環境的に映せる場面かも重要になってきます。

私は実際に通話には出ておりますので、当日の周囲の環境も把握できるでしょう。

私は当日は室外で対応をしておりました。通話検証であるという事前の説明を受けていたので、電話で一言二言聞かれた内容を回答するだけで良いだろうと思ってです。

しかし、ビデオ検証を求められた場合は、周辺の環境的に映すことが不適切な場合もありますよね。

こういったユーザーへの配慮が一切なく、検証プロセスまでの対応が非常識であるという点を私は強く主張します。

仲裁サイトの皆様も私の主張が非常識であるか、それともカジノの検証プロセスの経緯に問題があるかを客観的に回答して頂きたい。

私の主張がおかしいとはどうしても思えません。

monyfry, I totally understand that sudden request for video verification while it was not agreed on before may be unpleasant to deal with, however, we still have not received all information from the casino, so I suggest we wait for their response so we can learn if there are any reasons for them to believe that terms and conditions could be breached in any other way.

Dear Pavel,

Our team has sent an email with more information. We are looking forward to your reply.

Best Regards,

The Wild.io Team

What's going on?

どうなってますか?

We have sent the e-mail to the casino requesting further information, so I am prolonging the timer.

Dear Pavel,

We have just replied to your email and we are looking forward to your feedback.

Best Regards,

The Wild.io Team

As of 17:05, I have confirmed that it has not arrived at my email address.

This casino site is still not acting in good faith at this point.

Is this a casino site worthy of a high rating?

All you casino gurus out there must have read the whole story.

This time again, no email has arrived, which again confirms that there is an error in their explanation process.

There are also screenshots of the evidence.

17:05現時点で私のメールアドレスに届いてないのを確認しました。

このカジノサイトはこの時点でも誠意を持って対応しておりません。

これが高評価に値するカジノサイトなのですか?

カジノグルの皆様は一連の経緯を読まれてるはずです。

今回もメールは届いておらず、彼らの説明プロセスに誤りがあることが改めて確認できます。

証拠のスクリーンショットもあります。

The casino have sent e-mail to me, you can see that they mention my name at the beginning of the message. I will let you know when we will make a further decision.

We have responded to your email and look forward to hearing from you.

I would like to ask Pavel.

It looks like Wild.io sent an email to the customer (in this case to me).

Why did it reach Pavel and not me?

Was this originally a message to Pavel?

>お客様のメールに返信いたしましたので、ご意見をお待ちしております。

Pavel氏にお尋ねします。

Wild.ioはお客様（この場合は私宛）にメールを送ったと書かれてるように見えます。

何故私ではなくPavel氏に届いてるのでしょうか?

これは元々Pavel氏へのメッセージなのでしょうか?

I see

This was translated differently into CasinoGuru's native language than it was into Google Translate.

This was a misunderstanding on my part, so I would like to apologize to the representative of wild.io.

very sorry.

なるほど

これはカジノグルの母国語への翻訳とグーグル翻訳では意味が異なりました。

この点は私の勘違いでしたのでwild.ioの代表者様に謝罪させていただきます。

申し訳ありません。

monyfry, casino has suggested that the video call will be done in such a way that they will sent you messages in English, you will translate them using google translate and answer using English, using the translator if needed. They are willing to take their time to do that. They will contact you shortly.

Pavel:

I am not asking for KYC re-certification.

If it is determined that this issue is my fault, I will not even undergo KYC.

I don't care if my funds are confiscated.

What I would like you to judge is, after looking at the entire situation, which response was problematic.

My contention is that Nonce Gaming BV does not respect the privacy of its customers.

If they do not apologize I will not accept the KYC process and at that point I would like to thoroughly downgrade this casino site.

I would also like you to immediately publish the user review I wrote, which is still under review.

I have no intention of responding with the casino's arrogant response that suggests I can just withdraw my money.

Given all the trouble we've had so far, I believe there is a very good chance that the KYC process will work against me.

Pavel氏

私が求めているのはKYCの再認証ではありません。

私はこの問題が、私に非があると断定されればKYCすら受けるつもりはありません。

資金の没収をされようが気にしません。

あなた達に判断してほしいのは、一連の経緯を見ていただいた上で、どちらの対応に問題があったかです。

Nonce Gaming B.V.社は顧客のプライバシーを守ってない、というのが私の主張です。

彼らが謝罪をしない場合はKYCプロセスを受け入れるつもりもありませんし、その時点でこのカジノサイトの評価を徹底して下げていただきたい。

そして未だに確認中となっている私が書いたユーザーレビューを即座に公開していただきたい。

出金すれば良いんだろうというカジノの驕った対応に応じるつもりはありません。

ここまで揉めた以上、KYCプロセスで私に不利に働く可能性も非常に高いと思っています。

It's even mentioned in the very first sentence.

After reviewing all the information currently available, we have written this request to ask for an apology from Wild.io for their response.

Whether they reinstate KYC is not a question for them to decide.

Only when I am satisfied with their apology will I consider undergoing KYC.

What I'm concerned about is their dishonest response.

It would be ridiculous to think that a company that can only handle such a situation would be able to withdraw money even after KYC has been completed.

一番最初の文章でも記載があります。

現時点で公開されている全ての情報を判断した上でWild.ioの対応に対する謝罪を求めてこちらに記載をしました。

彼らがKYCを再開するかどうかは彼らが決めるべき問題ではありません。

私が彼らの謝罪で納得した時に初めてKYCを受けるか検討するだけです。

私が重要視しているのは彼らの不誠実な対応です。

そのような対応しかできない企業が、このあとKYCをしたところで出金されると思うほうがおかしいでしょう。

monyfry, either you comply with our and casino's request and undergo the KYC or your complaint gets rejected. We are not a service to deliver apologies but an intermediary between players and casinos. You have already stated that you do not care if your winnings are paid or not and on that stage I could already reject your complaint. This message is the last chance for you.

I don't understand what you mean by "according to request."

CasinoGuru was founded with the purpose of arbitration, right?

We would like you to decide who is at fault in this process.

Even if I were to resume the KYC process video verification in the current situation, wouldn't it be easy for the casino to confiscate it by finding fault?

Their argument is that I had some issues and I declined the KYC process.

Even if the KYC process were to resume with that argument in place, I think I would be at a disadvantage.

So, I am saying that if it is determined that there is a problem with me, there is no point in going through the KYV process and I will give up the prize money.

However, if you decide that their claims are wrong, you will understand the process if you take confiscation measures after I have completed the remaining process without any problems.

I am also anticipating confiscation measures after completing the video verification.

Considering their response, I think there is a very high possibility that they will confiscate the items even if there are no problems with the verification.

要求に従ってというのが意味がわかりません。

カジノグルは仲裁をすることを目的に設立されているのですよね?

今回のプロセスにおいてどちらに非があるかを判断していただきたい。

現状で私がKYCプロセスビデオ検証を再開したところで、カジノ側は難癖をつけて没収することが容易ではありませんか?

私に問題があってKYCプロセスを断った、これが彼らの主張です。

その主張のままKYCプロセスが再開されても、私は不利な立ち位置だと思いますが。

なので、私に問題があると判断された場合はKYVプロセスを受けても無駄なので賞金は諦めると言っています。

しかし、彼らの主張がおかしいという判断を下して頂ければ、このあとのプロセスで私が問題無く完了した後に没収措置を取れば、その経緯をあなた方も理解されるはずです。

私はビデオ検証を完了した後の没収措置も見越しているのです。

彼らの対応をみれば検証に問題が起きなくとも没収してくる可能性が非常に高いと思っています。

Pavel:

You say this is your last chance, but I would like you to look at the original text of my launch of this claim.

What I'm asking for is a judgment on how the process went and an apology.

Have we asked you guys to restart the KYC process even once?

What I am looking for is an objective judgment from a third party familiar with KYC as to whether there were any problems with Wild.io's process.

If you think that the complaint was filed with the aim of resuming KYC, you are mistaken.

What is consistent is which side was at fault, as judged by a third party.

Pavel氏

あなたは最後のチャンスとおっしゃっていますが、私がこのクレームを立ち上げた最初の本文を見ていただきたい。

私が求めているのはプロセスの経緯の判断と謝罪です。

一度でもKYCプロセスの再開をあなた達にお願いしていますか?

私が求めているのはKYCに精通している第三者のWild.ioのプロセスに問題が無かったかの客観的な判断です。

もしもKYCの再開を目的にクレームを立てたと思われるなら誤解です。

一貫しているのは第三者による判断でどちらに問題があったかです。

I'm sure you have read Wild.io's Terms of Use.

There is no mention that verification in English takes priority, nor is there any rule that says phone verification = video verification.

They also explained that the environment in which call verification is possible is different from the environment in which video verification is possible.

Although I played in accordance with the terms and conditions, it is wild.io that is violating the terms and conditions in a way that is not stated in the terms and conditions.

Various conditions were announced later during the verification session on the day.

I didn't have the free time to look into the terms and conditions they suddenly introduced.

They will be on the day

[Please note that providing any false/inaccurate/misleading information during this process will result in immediate termination of your account]

I am bringing up this sentence.

I was forced to respond in English instead of my native language, and that's how I ended up writing the above message.

It seems to me that they just want to confiscate it for some arbitrary reason, such as not recognizing my response.

The whole process should be understood.

If you say that you are not in a position to judge that, I will include all the information I sent you in a user review, with any personal information hidden.

I would like these to be made public.

Whether or not a casino site that misrepresents its KYC process can be trusted is an important factor for users to decide, and it should not be a reason for me to stop writing a review.

Wild.ioの利用規約はあなた方も読んでいるはずです。

英語による検証が優先されるなど書いてありませんし、通話検証=ビデオ検証などという規約もありません。

通話検証が可能な環境化とビデオ検証が可能な環境化は違うとも説明をしています。

規約に則って遊戯した私に対して規約に書かれてない、違反行為をしているのはwild.io側です。

当日の検証時間に後出しで色々な条件を出されています。

私は彼らが急遽持ち出した利用規約を調べるための自由な時間もありませんでした。

彼らは当日になり

【このプロセス中に虚偽/不正確/誤解を招く情報を提供すると、アカウントが即座に終了することに注意してください】

この文面を持ち出しています。

母国語で無く英語による対応を強要され、行き成り上記の文言ですよ。

彼らは私の受け答えが認識出来なかったなど、適当な理由で没収するという意思しか私には思えません。

その経緯も全て理解されているはずです。

あなた達がそれを判断する立場じゃないと言われるなら、私はあなた達に送った情報を、個人情報を隠した上で全てユーザレビューに記載します。

それらをきちんと公開していただきたい。

KYCプロセスに虚偽の説明をするカジノサイトが信頼を置けるかどうかは、ユーザーが判断する重要な項目のはずであり、私のレビューを止める理由にはならないはずです。

Honestly, this may be the first time in the history of the existence of out Complaint resolution center when someone asks for an apology and not to resolve the problem with their funds. This assumption that you are here to solve a real problem lead to us helping you to do it. If we have knew that you do not intend to cooperate and instead of it will just make senseless requests asking for apologies, your complaint would have not been even accepted.

Judging by your communication with the casino (from the very beginning) there never was any problem except for you getting in the way of your KYC process. There is just no place and no time for some accusations like you have made, no one ever bothers with such small details as a difference between "call" and "video call", the verification process is just something that must be done. Only people that usually have problem with video calls are players committing fraud and playing in other person's name.

Another problem is the language barrier, but we and the casino have tried to find a solution for you, even with the fact that they do not have a duty to make verification calls in the player's native language. It is logical that the international casino operating and communicating fully in English will have a possibility to make a KYC call only in that language, which is spoken in all parts of the world.

Therefore, there is no casino's fault that they do not have a Japanese speaker to make a call with you, neither it is their fault that they want to verify your identity, neither it is their fault that you were behaving suspiciously by stalling the process and neither it is their fault that you are still refusing to cooperate after you have been explained the problem and suggested a solution.

Thus, I am rejecting your complaint. Please, do not waste anyone's time by requesting the reopen unless you will communicate with the casino and pass the KYC process by yourself.